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| If you're easily offended, you had best not go there |
No worries there
. I'll check it out later today!reza
Full Version: The Real History of the Crusades?
No worries there
. I'll check it out later today!reza
Very interesting.
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| Morass...You harass/insult another member one more time and you're out of here!!! |
I would like evidence of harrasment. If I am to be accused of harrasing another member I would like evidence.
Note: please visit the Satanic Versus thread and let me know where I have insulted and harrassed another member.
OmHussein,
The bulk of my knowledge about the crusades came not from that article, but from my high school years! (see my post please)
...and just in case you're wondering, I'm just as aware of the 40 000+ Muslims and 5000+ Jews massacred (with the blessing of the Pope of course)in just 2 days, as I'm aware of mad Al Hakim and he's good deeds towards Christians and Jews before the crusades and the fate of the pilgrims who where captured by the Turks on their way to Jerusalem!
Convinceme
The bulk of my knowledge about the crusades came not from that article, but from my high school years! (see my post please)
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| This might come as a surprise to some, but actually in the ‘Old country’ we where thought a very similar (but more cruel) version of the historical events leading to, and taking place during the crusades... |
...and just in case you're wondering, I'm just as aware of the 40 000+ Muslims and 5000+ Jews massacred (with the blessing of the Pope of course)in just 2 days, as I'm aware of mad Al Hakim and he's good deeds towards Christians and Jews before the crusades and the fate of the pilgrims who where captured by the Turks on their way to Jerusalem!
Convinceme
I happened to skim through it, but where exactly does it say that the Muslims were the first to kill during the battle of Tabuk?
As for the conquest of Mecca, it wasn't a battle and was never meant to be one. With 10,000 men the Prophet aimed at gauranteeing entrance into Mecca.
One thing the source fails to mention is that when the Muslims entered Mecca one of the companions came out screaming with his sword in his hand:
"Today we kill the women. Today we avenge our dead ones".
It was then that the Prophet hurried to Imam Ali and told him to stop that man and shout instead:
"Today we care for the women. Today we forgive our enemies".
So you see the Prophet could have slaughtered the infidels like they did to the Muslims but he chose to forgive.
I'll put the ticket arrangements on hold until you get back to me on the "Battle of Tabuk" issue.
reza
As for the conquest of Mecca, it wasn't a battle and was never meant to be one. With 10,000 men the Prophet aimed at gauranteeing entrance into Mecca.
One thing the source fails to mention is that when the Muslims entered Mecca one of the companions came out screaming with his sword in his hand:
"Today we kill the women. Today we avenge our dead ones".
It was then that the Prophet hurried to Imam Ali and told him to stop that man and shout instead:
"Today we care for the women. Today we forgive our enemies".
So you see the Prophet could have slaughtered the infidels like they did to the Muslims but he chose to forgive.
I'll put the ticket arrangements on hold until you get back to me on the "Battle of Tabuk" issue.
reza
You are absolutely right about Tabuk my friend, but your excuse for the conquest of Mecca is kind of lame! 
Anyhow, since we're talking about wars started by Mohamed(puh) and I would realy, realy, realy enjoy flying to Hong Kong, tell me what are your thoughts about these:
www.islamvision.org/badr.htm
www.islamvision.org/taif.htm
Convinceme
BTW reza, could you see to it please that we're getting window seats on the flight? Thanks!
Anyhow, since we're talking about wars started by Mohamed(puh) and I would realy, realy, realy enjoy flying to Hong Kong, tell me what are your thoughts about these:
www.islamvision.org/badr.htm
www.islamvision.org/taif.htm
Convinceme
BTW reza, could you see to it please that we're getting window seats on the flight? Thanks!
okey dokey
Guess I can live with that...
Guess I can live with that...
I'm curious Reza,
What is the significance of your Mahdi on a horse with a drawn sword?
Doesn't that give life to the "conversion by the sword" argument?
What is the significance of your Mahdi on a horse with a drawn sword?
Doesn't that give life to the "conversion by the sword" argument?
The sword is part of Muslim/Arab heritage, and so is the horse. The Mahdi on a horse simply shows one of the many traits of Al-Mahdi: Courage. Is there something I'm missing? In almost any Arab/Muslim dance or show you'll see men on horses with drawn swords.
Also bear in mind that there are two things the early Muslims/Arabs were known for: Their turbans and their swords. I found nothing offensive or contraversial about the picture so that's why I'd like to hear why you found it interesting.
The Queen of England knights people with the sword. Nobody jumped up and said it was an act of violence. Even America's own major of NY (Guliani) had a sword brought to his head. Beats me...
There are two types of Jihad: Major Jihad and Minor Jihad. Minor Jihad is physical combat whereas Major Jihad which is the more important is the Jihad of one with oneself. As sister OmHussein mentioned, overcoming ones own evil.
Also bear in mind that there are two things the early Muslims/Arabs were known for: Their turbans and their swords. I found nothing offensive or contraversial about the picture so that's why I'd like to hear why you found it interesting.
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| Many times you probably see these kind of symbols in Islam.But they are not a way to see how violent we are |
The Queen of England knights people with the sword. Nobody jumped up and said it was an act of violence. Even America's own major of NY (Guliani) had a sword brought to his head. Beats me...
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| 'Jihad' is mostly used connected with issues like faith,knowledge,morals,avioding sin and more... |
There are two types of Jihad: Major Jihad and Minor Jihad. Minor Jihad is physical combat whereas Major Jihad which is the more important is the Jihad of one with oneself. As sister OmHussein mentioned, overcoming ones own evil.
Hey, just noticed: A man on a horse with a sword in his hand is part of the al-imam.net logo too...Apparently Imam Ali from the television series!
reza
reza
I'll check out the link you gave, although I have to say that I stand strong with my opinion because the fact that the Prophet never started not even one of his battles was told to me by a very high scholar who has historic evidence of all the battles and how they started. That's why I know I'm right but might not be able to prove it...yet!
I'll get back to you on this later today.
reza
I'll get back to you on this later today.
reza
In my wanderings, I came acrosss the following web page which purports to explain "The Real History of the Crusades".
Please visit
http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
I would be very interested in hearing the members reactions to the information there. Be warned that it does not always present Muslims or Islam in the best light. If you're easily offended, you had best not go there.
Please visit
http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
I would be very interested in hearing the members reactions to the information there. Be warned that it does not always present Muslims or Islam in the best light. If you're easily offended, you had best not go there.
Hey,Kosh.
I'm surely going to check it out,since it is one of the subjects I really should read up on...I dont have time right now,but I will probably have a lot to come with when I'm done
..
And dont worry,many things have been done in the name of Islam thru history,just like other religions.I think we all are fully aware of that... we also know that man's actions does not always reflect the teachings of a religion.I think we can handle it... Thanks..
I'm surely going to check it out,since it is one of the subjects I really should read up on...I dont have time right now,but I will probably have a lot to come with when I'm done
..And dont worry,many things have been done in the name of Islam thru history,just like other religions.I think we all are fully aware of that... we also know that man's actions does not always reflect the teachings of a religion.I think we can handle it...
Thanks..
This might come as a surprise to some, but actually in the ‘Old country’ we where thought a very similar (but more cruel) version of the historical events leading to, and taking place during the crusades. As for the atrocities committed on both sides……..why would simple mortals worry about ethics when their respective religious leaders free them from any burden?
Convinceme
Convinceme
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| why would simple mortals worry about ethics when their respective religious leaders free them from any burden? |
You know,that could be a whole topic on its own...
Oh,I forgot,I gotta check your link...Slipped my mind for a sec here...
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| From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. |
Interesting...Ok here's the deal: If anyone here can produce evidence that Muhammed (pbuh&hh) started just one of his wars, that'll get you two round-trip tickets to any place in the world. All of the Prophet's wars were in self defense. Even his grandson in Karbala said "I would hate to be the first to attack".
And were people "forced" to become Muslim? When a land was overtaken people had the freedom to choose between becoming Muslim or becoming "Ahlul Thimma" -Non Muslims living on Muslim soil.
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| By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain |
Spain...For 800 years the Muslims ruled it!
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| Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over |
Really?
Anyway, interesting article.
reza
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| Interesting...Ok here's the deal: If anyone here can produce evidence that Muhammed (pbuh&hh) started just one of his wars, that'll get you two round-trip tickets to any place in the world. |
www.islamvision.org/tabuk.htm
www.islamvision.org/conquest.htm
I'd like to visit Homg-Kong please!
Convinceme
hmmm.... what I said was'that could be a topis all on its own'.
I do not recall commenting on anything else....
I do not recall commenting on anything else....
OmHussein,
I've only responded to the irony I've felt in your reply......
Convinceme
I've only responded to the irony I've felt in your reply......
Convinceme
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| but your excuse for the conquest of Mecca is kind of lame! |
Please elaborate. I was giving historical facts, nothing I happened to come up with.
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| www.islamvision.org/badr.htm |
All you have to do for this one is watch the movie "The Message", also available on DVD. Anothony Quinn stars in it. It was the Infidels who shouted "Attack!" first. And bear in mind that this movie has knelt the approval of both schools of thought as to its validity. Have you seen it yet?
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| www.islamvision.org/taif.htm |
Again, please quote lines that you would like me to read. I cannot possibly read through the whole thing.
It would be good if you quoted different sources too
. You know, different schools of thought recall somewhat different historical facts. The article you mentioned quotes from books that hold no relevance in the Shia school of thought. Nevertheless, I'm not using that as an excuse...reza
Actually,I do not see how the sword is directly connected with 'conversion'...
In Islam we can not pressure anyone to become Muslim by force.For the simple reason that true faith comes from within,not from treaths...
Many times you probably see these kind of symbols in Islam.But they are not a way to see how violent we are,or that war and death is especially highlighted in Islam.As an example,the word 'Jihad' which has gotten a huge amount of attention lately.This word is now almost automatically connected with war,blood and torture.For us,and how we use this word,it in most cases has nothing to do with violence,or non-muslims.'Jihad' is mostly used connected with issues like faith,knowledge,morals,avioding sin and more...
When you see a symbol,even if it is a sword,do not automatically assume it means anything violent,because it might be something totaly different...
In Brother Reza's case,I think he should answer himself what his picture means...
OmHussein
In Islam we can not pressure anyone to become Muslim by force.For the simple reason that true faith comes from within,not from treaths...
Many times you probably see these kind of symbols in Islam.But they are not a way to see how violent we are,or that war and death is especially highlighted in Islam.As an example,the word 'Jihad' which has gotten a huge amount of attention lately.This word is now almost automatically connected with war,blood and torture.For us,and how we use this word,it in most cases has nothing to do with violence,or non-muslims.'Jihad' is mostly used connected with issues like faith,knowledge,morals,avioding sin and more...
When you see a symbol,even if it is a sword,do not automatically assume it means anything violent,because it might be something totaly different...
In Brother Reza's case,I think he should answer himself what his picture means...
OmHussein
Ok reza, I'll try not to step on to many feet while I give you my prospective
Although the conquest of Maccah did go down in history as the 'Bloodless conquest' the fact remains that there where not 10 000 cheer leaders singing and dancing at the gates of Maccah, but 10 000 warriors armed to the teeth! Don't you think that little fact influenced just a tiny bit the outcome of that particular event?
Here is a quote from the events leading up to the battle of Badr:
the Conquest of Khaybar had a somewhat similar motivation as the one lead up to Badr, however I will reserve comments on that one!
BTW, I've choose my source to be an Islamic one so it will not be labeled as a propaganda spread by you know who , but since you've asked for it, here is one more source.(just look under 'the battle of Badr'
Exert from the battle Ta’if;
When someone closes the gates of the city after storing stocks of food for a year, IMHO they are not making preparation for conquest; rather they're preparing to defend themselfs!
Now before anyone will try to hastily expose my hidden motifs behind my participation in this thread, just remember'; It is my dream to see Hong Kong and reza will help me achieve that dream!
On the subject of the sword……
I do not think that it is offensive at all! The Hungarian Hussars where often depicted in the exact similar matter as the Mahdi on the horse in fact there is a famous painting I will try to find for you to see, however Islam, just as Christianity or other religions and even communism was spread not only by the power of reasoning, but by the sword as well! To deny that is like denying the existence of the 'Holly wars' waged in order to spread Islam! Just in case………. here are just a few European country’s forced to either embrace Islam, or pay the poll tax and be subject to Islamic rule: Spain 800 years, Portugal 600 years, Greece 500 years, Sicily 300 years, Serbia 400 years, Bulgaria 500 years, Rumania 400 year, and Hungary 150 years.
Convinceme.
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| As for the conquest of Mecca, it wasn't a battle and was never meant to be one. With 10,000 men the Prophet aimed at gauranteeing entrance into Mecca. |
Although the conquest of Maccah did go down in history as the 'Bloodless conquest' the fact remains that there where not 10 000 cheer leaders singing and dancing at the gates of Maccah, but 10 000 warriors armed to the teeth! Don't you think that little fact influenced just a tiny bit the outcome of that particular event?
Here is a quote from the events leading up to the battle of Badr:
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| The circumstances that led to this battle began with the news received by the Prophet (Peace be upon him) that a great caravan with lots of money and merchandise, was being led by Abu Sufyan on its way back to Mecca from Syria. |
the Conquest of Khaybar had a somewhat similar motivation as the one lead up to Badr, however I will reserve comments on that one!
BTW, I've choose my source to be an Islamic one so it will not be labeled as a propaganda spread by you know who
, but since you've asked for it, here is one more source.(just look under 'the battle of Badr'Exert from the battle Ta’if;
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| The warriors of Thaqif who fled from Hunayn returned to Ta'if. They closed the gates of the city after storing stocks of food enough to serve them for a year. Thus, they prepared themselves in time for another encounter with the Muslims. |
When someone closes the gates of the city after storing stocks of food for a year, IMHO they are not making preparation for conquest; rather they're preparing to defend themselfs!
Now before anyone will try to hastily expose my hidden motifs behind my participation in this thread, just remember'; It is my dream to see Hong Kong and reza will help me achieve that dream!
| Quote |
| Interesting...Ok here's the deal: If anyone here can produce evidence that Muhammed (pbuh&hh) started just one of his wars, that'll get you two round-trip tickets to any place in the world. All of the Prophet's wars were in self defense. |
On the subject of the sword……
I do not think that it is offensive at all! The Hungarian Hussars where often depicted in the exact similar matter as the Mahdi on the horse in fact there is a famous painting I will try to find for you to see, however Islam, just as Christianity or other religions and even communism was spread not only by the power of reasoning, but by the sword as well! To deny that is like denying the existence of the 'Holly wars' waged in order to spread Islam! Just in case………. here are just a few European country’s forced to either embrace Islam, or pay the poll tax and be subject to Islamic rule: Spain 800 years, Portugal 600 years, Greece 500 years, Sicily 300 years, Serbia 400 years, Bulgaria 500 years, Rumania 400 year, and Hungary 150 years.
Convinceme.
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| Also bear in mind that there are two things the early Muslims/Arabs were known for: Their turbans and their swords. I found nothing offensive or contraversial about the picture so that's why I'd like to hear why you found it interesting. |
The association of the Islamic savior carrying a sword by itself suggests the "conversion by sword" theme expressed elsewhere. As the west becomes more aware of Islam, we also get to hear about the more radical aspects/opinions relating to Islam. BTW, I did not find the image offensive and I have long understood the association between the Arab culture and the sword as well as Arabian horses.
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| The Queen of England knights people with the sword. Nobody jumped up and said it was an act of violence. Even America's own major of NY (Guliani) had a sword brought to his head. Beats me... |
That certainly came out of the blue... Since it's illegal for an American citizen to accept a title of nobility, I believe he was awarded something like a "friend of the empire" sort of thing.
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| There are two types of Jihad: Major Jihad and Minor Jihad. Minor Jihad is physical combat whereas Major Jihad which is the more important is the Jihad of one with oneself. As sister OmHussein mentioned, overcoming ones own evil. |
Again, we recall what aspects of Islam are presented to the west by both our media and that of the ME. The only context Jihad is explained is that of the physical conflict, based on religious pretexts.
Based on what you say, I guess I'm the survivor of many Major Jihads. Lot's of evil in this life and past lives to make up for...
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| Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924. I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of Husain the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission to save the Islam. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. |
Thank you sister, I've always wanted Ghandi's exact quote about Imam Hussain. Any chance you have the source for his quote "I learned from Hussain how to be oppressed, yet victorious"?
Salam Alaikum,
WoW, that that made me
..., Ghandi actually said that??? im surprised. Thats a very good statement by him, very good one infact and its right aswell. Well thank you for sharing sister.
M3a Salama.
WoW, that that made me
..., Ghandi actually said that??? im surprised. Thats a very good statement by him, very good one infact and its right aswell. Well thank you for sharing sister. M3a Salama.
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